Posts by Island Man

40

Did You Ever Hear An Elder or Bethelite's Comments That Made You Question ??

by minimus in

jw
friends

years ago, the society's speakers used to give many off the cuff statements.

a lot of personal opinions and questionable remarks.. anything ever stand out for you in this area?.

Island Man

I once heard a CO during his talk speaking about showing brotherly love, say:

"If you don't have it [i.e. the capacity to show genuine brotherly love] fake it until you get it."

One more thing, this has got to be the creepiest, cultiest line in all the JW song book:

"Our Lord has appointed a trustworthy slave, Through whom He gives food in due season." - Song 116, start of second stanza

It sounds so Mormon! Everytime I hear it, for some reason I start to think about the Mormons thinking about Joseph Smith as an appointed Seer.

19

What's the next big organizational change you predict could happen?

by Island Man in

jw
friends

yadda yadda 2 predicted a change in the bookstudy arrangement.

what future changes do you predict could/would happen?.

Island Man

yadda yadda 2 predicted a change in the bookstudy arrangement. What future changes do you predict could/would happen?

22

I predicted a big change to the book study arrangement just over a year ago

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

here's the thread:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/129345/1.ashx.

.

Island Man

" Maybe the Bethelite monitors took your post as a suggestion!"

You know how some companies conduct exit interviews with employees who leave? Well we know that JWs wouldn't speak with ex-members to conduct an exit interview so what's the closest thing to this that the organization can hope for? Could be reading comments and experinces on apostate forums like these?

52

trying to convince my wife not to confess...

by wafflesandpancakes in

during our engagement, we fooled around and touch each other down there.

it's not a "tap" but definitely is not "stimulation".

i tried to convince my wife, who, after 5 years of marriage, strangely felt guilty all the sudden, that its not do called porneia.

Island Man

The kinds of probing, intimate questions the elders are going to ask your wife constitute a greater sin than what your wife feels guilty about doing years ago.

52

Who is easier to indoctrinate, men or women?

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

from purely anecdotal evidence, i believe women are more indoctrinated on average.

i can openly disagree with the governing body with men and it results in a discussion however, most women i've talked to have immediately shut me down by ending the conversation.

the only person currently shunning me is a woman.

Island Man

I know it's tempting to say women based on the high ratio of women to men among JWs. But I don't think indoctrination is the real reason for the high percentage of women. I think it's emotiation (if there is such a word, LOL), the emotional equivalent of indoctrination.

Women tend to be very nurturing, social, emotionally intelligent creatures. The JW environment - and many church environments - caters to those qualities. So for that reason women tend to be more attracted to it than men resulting in higher retention rates of women than men.

In other words, although there are more women than men, it is not doctrine that is pulling the women more than the men, but the social community. The women are in it less so for the doctrine than the men are.

22

WT's Crazed Obsession!

by JW GoneBad in

i have recently read for the umpteenth time the 4 gospel accounts.

what caught my attention this time around was how many times jesus makes mention of the endeared expression father (with f in caps) when referring to his god as recorded by matthew, mark, luke and john.. what was also interesting by comparison is how little jesus actually makes reference to his father on a first name basis (jehovah) in these four books.. note my findings with the help of the comprehensive concordance:.

jehovah: matthew 11 times mark 8 times luke 26 times john 4 times (total 49 times).. father: mathew 43 times mark 4 times luke 21 times john 119 times (total 187 times).. .

Island Man

It said that John addressed his second epistle to "the chosen lady" as a cryptic way of referring to an entire congregation of believers so that should the letter have fallen into the hands of any persecutors it might not be discerned that he was addressing a congregation thus putting many believers at risk.

If such concern for the safety and wellbeing of believers could motivate John to be so cryptic, then why wouldn't concern for the safety and well being of congregations not also motivate NT writers to avoid using the name YHWH for fear that congregation members might be charged with blasphemy?

Also, given that the Jews were already replacing YHWH with Adonai in the OT copies that they were making, it is very likely that, not only the uttering of the name was forbidden but also writing it down in works that weren't copies of the OT. The NT writers could have foreseen that they would be putting congregations in danger if they were caught with writings containing "YHWH" in it.

The reason no NT manuscript can be found with the divine name is that it was never there to begin with.

22

WT's Crazed Obsession!

by JW GoneBad in

i have recently read for the umpteenth time the 4 gospel accounts.

what caught my attention this time around was how many times jesus makes mention of the endeared expression father (with f in caps) when referring to his god as recorded by matthew, mark, luke and john.. what was also interesting by comparison is how little jesus actually makes reference to his father on a first name basis (jehovah) in these four books.. note my findings with the help of the comprehensive concordance:.

jehovah: matthew 11 times mark 8 times luke 26 times john 4 times (total 49 times).. father: mathew 43 times mark 4 times luke 21 times john 119 times (total 187 times).. .

Island Man

I don't think it's difficult to understand why YHWH would have been *originally* left out of the NT books. Here are 3 important points worth keeping in mind:

1. It is noteworthy that outside of the book of Revelation, not a single NT book professes itself as being a message from God. With the exception of Revelation, there is no evidence in any of the other NT books that would suggest that their writers considered themsleves to be writing under the inspiriation of God. (Note for example, Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 7:12 which can only be truthful if he did not believe that his letter was inspired)

2. Most of the books of the NT are in the form of letters and epistles that were *read out loud* at christian gatherings at which unbelieving Jews and other members of the public would/could be present - and at a time when pronouncing the divine name out loud made one liable to the charge of blasphemy!

3. There is no scripture in the bible that commands christians to use the divine name. But they can be charged by the Jews with blasphemy if they do use it!

Let's put it all together: Imagine you are a christian living at a time when you could be accused of blasphemy for using God's name and you're writing a letter to a congregation which you know will be *read out loud*, and you have no delusions of grandeur about what you're writing being inspired by God, and there is no command that forces you to use the name of God . . . why on earth would you go out of your way to write YHWH in your letter? Why would you unecessarily run the risk of the name being pronounced out loud at the meeting, causing any pharisee-like individuals who happen to be present to charge your brothers with blasphemy? I think that is the simple explanation for the absence of the divine name in the NT. First century christians didn't have an obsessive fixation on using the name as if it was commanded, but they could be charged with blasphemy for using it. There really was no need for them to fanatically bring persecution on themselves since they were not commanded to use the name by Jesus or God.

I believe that the writers of the NT books did not consider their writings to be inspired and this is why they did not feel the need to go against the law forbidding the use of the divine name. The view that these writings are inspired is a tradition that developed after the death of the writers and has been accepted and handed down on hearsay. The evidence used to support the idea that they are inspired is basically ancient recorded hearsay coupled with the fact that these writings quote the OT and seem to be somewhat harmonious with the OT. But when you really think about it, anyone who is educated in the OT can write a book harmonizing with it and quoting from it. There is nothing miraculous or divine about that. It's simply a mind shaped by OT thinking going on to produce a literary work that is . . . surprize! surprize! . . . harmonious with the OT. Duh! The criteria used to judge the NT books as inspired could also be used to judge any modern literary work that quotes and harmonizes with the OT, as being inspired - except for the fact that it is a MODERN work.

12

Tower of Babel and the Bible's language

by jws in

so *if* god wrote the bible (or directed people on what to write), he must have wanted people to read it and follow it.. so why did he confuse the languages at the tower of babel and then have his ot books written in only one of the languages?.

if people couldn't read it, they couldn't follow it.

if they had nothing else to follow, the people inclined to believe in higher powers would have to try to figure that out for themselves and end up with various beliefs.. so god is to blame for any false religion and worship of false gods.

Island Man

The funny thing is he he gave first century christians the power to speak in different languages yet neglected to use that opportunity to have them perfectly translate the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into all the the languages present and future.

108

"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne in

in a recent meeting with elders, an argument was used to the effect that jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the wts must be that organization today, since god must be using one.

naturally, i know what arguments i've used to counter that argument.

but i'm interested in hearing yours.

Island Man

I think Eric did a great video on this some time back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLXOzQQ2ePM

I think there are 3 main counter points to the "always an organization" self-serving propaganda:

1. JW can't identify any organization from the time after the apostles to the time of C.T. Russel. If God was using an organization in Russel's day then why didn't he join that organization instead of forming his own group which was later transformed into an organization by Ratherfraud?

2. God already has a heavenly organization headed by Jesus. Jesus is fully capable of organizing and overseeing the preaching work from heaven using angels and holy spirit to direct individual christians on earth. So for the preaching work to be accomplished globally all individual christians have to do is follow the leadings of holy spirit, preaching when and where the spirit impels them. The book of Acts records accounts of angels and holy spirit directing individuals to preach in certain areas and to certain individuals. Why would it be any different today?

The JWs' saying that a visible earthly organization is needed to carry out the preaching work globally is not only redundant but is also an affront to the competence of God's heavenly organization. The claim implicitly demonstrates their lack of faith in the ability of God's heavenly organization headed by christ to organize and direct the preaching effort using only holy spirit and angels and unaided by human oversight. It reminds me of the people in Samuel's day who wanted a visible human king which Jehovah regarded as an affront to his own invisible kingship. The JWs are actually mirroring this attitude. Their reasoning demonstrates that they can't imagine Jesus using just holy spirit and angels to organize and direct the preaching effort without human oversight. It reveals that they actually lack faith in God, Jesus and his heavenly organization. They have to have a VISIBLE earthly organization run by humans because they are really walking by sight and not by faith.

Of course, it is the organization that is pushing the visible organization propaganda that the JWs are just parroting. The organization uses such propaganda to make itself relevant - as a necessity in the lives of JWs. It is a self serving idea that it feeds all JWs to make them dependent on it and so that they will continue to donate funds and labor to upkeep it. This brings me to the third point.

3. Hierarchical organizations like the JWs' ultimately violate the principle Jesus highlighted at Matthew 6:24: "No one can slave for two masters." Visible earthly organizations have to be headed by imperfect men and you know the saying 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'. So inevitably these organizations headed by imperfect, corruptible men eventually develop self-serving motives geared at serving the organization's interests or the interests of the leaders, and which clash with the christian requirement to accurately and impartially follow the teachings of the bible. For example, if it is deemed necessary to sell literature to raise money to sustain or enrich the organization then the organization might implement that policy and twist some scriptures to support it. But this position would clash with Jesus' words: "you received free, give free". A situation of two masters is thus created - Serve God by obeying the bible, or serve The Organization by selling its literature? In this way earthly organizations headed by men divide the christian's loyalty and devotion to God, putting him in much the same position as someone slaving for two masters. But it's made all the more pernicious when the christian is misled to believe that the organization is God's organization and obeying the organization is tantamount to obeying God. This is what Watchtower has done.

14

My little sister

by Nika Bee in

my little sister is 14 years younger than me.

she was always special to me, i took care of her, when my mother was working, i carried her around, i comforted her.

we are very similar in our interests for music and literature.. she is in secondary school, an unbaptised publisher.. since i study in the us, we only see each other about once a year.

Island Man

As the others have said w rite her that you will love her unconditionally, that you will always be her loving sister. If you're not disfellowshipped ask her why she would want to cut ties with you when even the organization says that family ties remain between disfellowhipped ones and their family - and send her a link to that jw.org FAQ saying that . If nothing else it should get her wondering why jw.org says one thing while the study editions of the Watchtower says another.